Learning to Move Past the Starting Line with Dr. Melody Bacon
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:40:30]
that’s correct. So, you know, and then you know, you get your dissertation done, which is the main thing, so you get your doctorate. But I always like my students to think about future writing, because you did all this research and writing, it’s not for a popular, you know, a publication, but you can always take the basics. And that’s what I did. So my first book was based on my dissertation, was on the Grace Filled Divorce, was on grief and divorce and how it can transform me. And so it was such a pleasure to just sit down and write. Talk to my clients or you know, and
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:41:06]
in academia, we take this as your learned opinion. Right,
Dr. Melody Bacon [00: 41:17]
right. And to be able to use vignettes, to explain a concept. I, you know, I had already written portraits of each person I did in phenomenological research. And so the, you write up a story to call a portrait of each person, so I already had that. And so that was, you know, that was another process, I happen to use a coach, he had been a, an editor for psychotherapy, networker, which is a large publication in my field. But it’s, it’s kind of a hybrid, it’s not quite Psychology Today, but it’s not peer reviewed. So it’s a normal writing. And she knew the field and she knew how to get published with a publisher. And that was another learning curve, because I had to write a proposal for the publisher to look at, which is not at all like, what you’re doing, rotation, and I have no clue. So she took me through that. And then, you know, I’d send her things and she’d say, Okay, well, what do you think about this, or if that’s not making sense, so somebody else to look at. And so by the time it was done, you know, I was able to get that published. And then the next time around, actually, it was approached by a publisher, because I’d done a presentation, Routledge, and it was on family therapy and substance use treatment. And they asked me, Do you want to write this book? You just did this publication, this presentation? And we don’t have a book on this. And I’m like, Well, actually, I do because it’s really bugged me because I don’t even know what the research is out there. Turned out I was, reason why is there hasn’t been done much. So, but it was, okay. Now, once I did the lit review, and I found out there wasn’t much except in Europe, there was a little bit. I thought, well, then I’m going to develop a program and pilot it. So back in to, you know, doctoral, you know, research, I’m going to do a program evaluation, I’m going to develop a program and do, we’ll have some subject matter experts review it. So I did that. And then a pre then administer it with a pre and post assessment, and see what we got out of it. And that’s basically what now this book was more academic, because it was, so it was kind of not quite like writing a dissertation, but a little bit more like that. Right, um, but at the same time, and with teaching in mind, but it allowed me to, first of all, scratch an itch that had bugged me, but I never would have set aside the time if they hadn’t asked me and, and having had those other two experiences. When I wrote the proposal, even though Routledge asked me, they still wanted it, here’s what I was gonna do. I was gonna put, I put it all together the same way with writers, the, you know, the abstract and the marketing ideas and blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, that’s kind of how once you’ve done something, you can continue to build on it and take it in other directions. And, you know, have
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:44:31]
fun, important that you mentioned is this is something that I hear from folks that have gotten their doctoral degrees time and time and time again, is it just seems like if you if you earn your degree, and then you’re out there, all the opportunities come knocking.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:44:44]
That’s true.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:44:45]
Like, you don’t have to ask for some of these things. They’re just. You can come and they ask for them. Yes. So whatever it is, your goal is in in, in earning your doctoral degree Keep in mind that the opportunities are so much more vast than whatever it is you’re thinking right now.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:45:08]
That’s so true, you don’t know what you don’t know. Yeah, and the doors do open the opportunities. There’s tons of publishers out there that actually need content. There’s, you know, especially now that we have online options, and people really enjoy, you know, if you’re passionate about something, you’re gonna find those people who are as well and want to learn more, and they want to learn from you. And so
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:45:38]
more of the academic space, but there are people who just go out and help people directly through your coaching or consulting
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:45:46]
Oh my goodness. Yes. Oh my goodness yes. And I tell my students, when they’re writing, think about more like teaching, because if you think about your audience and what you want them to learn, you’ll be in a better space than what you’re trying to prove to whoever else is grading your paper. And that’s really, to me what writing is about it’s, it’s a corollary to teaching, because the reader is now going to be learning from you.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:46:12]
But when you’re out there, and you’re working in the public space, and you’re dealing with popular press, yes. Gotta be all about entertaining as well.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:46:21]
Yeah, you have to well, you have to make it interesting. I mean, we’ve all been in boring classes. Great. I remember in my master’s, lovely teacher, but he would, it was a night class, he would say he was so introverted, you sit and read the whole time in a very quiet voice. And you know, it’s nighttime, you’re dying, right? And so I, when I started teaching a, okay, that’s not gonna happen, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna mix it up and make it enjoyable. And, you know, because learning doesn’t just happen from listening to people. In fact, that’s probably the least effective way. But yeah, so you have to make, you have to hook people into your reading, particularly in popular press, I think you should do people a favor with it, whatever you find.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:47:10]
I had a similar experience. I was I took a history class in summer school when I was in college, it was a class that I didn’t particularly want to take is a required class. So I took it in summer school at an at a nearby college, so that I could get you know, like an A or B or something would have been good enough, it would affect my GPA. So I still have the perfectionist thing. I got an A in it anyway, but take some of the heat off. Anyway, this guy came in old old guy came in with his yellow Notepad. Right, brought it in, took his glasses and put them down on the end of his nose to the right spot, yellow Notepad. Then he took the glasses, put them up on his forehead, lean back, and proceeded to talk and this was summer school. So I think it was like three hours. They were in class every day. Because it was like a you know, what, six or seven week class or something? I don’t know. But I think it was like three hours, it certainly felt like four or five. And he just talked, but not in an animated way. Like he literally sit back and cross his arms and just talk about this. He knew everything. He knew the dates he knew who was married to who and how incestual it was, and all the things you knew all of this stuff. But it wasn’t like, you know, watching Game of Thrones on HBO or something like that, which is what history was, I mean, without the dragons. But it wasn’t like that it was this. Oh, and then at the end, at the end of the three or four or five or however many hours it was he would take his glasses, put them on the end of his nose, flip forward about an inch and a half in his head, look at it and kind of nod and say we’ll start there tomorrow. Yeah, we haven’t looked at that. yet. Look at those notes. It was he noticed talking about but conveying it to the rest of us was was another story. So
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:49:02]
yes, and a good storyteller is important, too, doesn’t have to be a fictional thing. You know, I mean, we’ve I, I’m a fan of his history. And you get some good Eric Larsen comes to mind he’s, he writes, history, but you it’s a page term. And that’s all factual. He doesn’t make one iota up. But he’s able to convey this story in a way that you’re like, Well, I know what happens, but I want to read this book to see. So you know, you want to at least I was telling my students, your first paragraph should just be a hook. It could be an interesting theme. It could be, you know, 70% of college students struggle with procrastination. You know, if you say that, in your first sentence, people are going to be going, what now they’re gonna want to know more rather than procrastination is the big problem. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So to kind of, but that’s the fun part. For me. I never start out with such a great opening. I just put it down. But then that’s where I start saying, Okay, how am I going to start this so that it engages the reader? That’s the icing on the cake. I’ve made the cake. Yeah, now I want to ice it and get it really, you know, kind of enjoyable. And to me, that’s the fun part. But the hard part is getting the cake written. And if you get the cake written, the cake is good enough, and you will get your dissertation done. And that’s all you need to worry about. Yeah,
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:50:26]
I tell folks time and time and time again, that you get no extra credit on your. You get the exact same doctoral degree, if you write a 110 page dissertation or a 337 page dissertation.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:50:42]
Nobody cares,
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:50:43]
Doctoral degree. And that’s the point. Nobody cares for most of us, unless you’re going into academia in, are no one will ever read your dissertation. Ever. It just won’t happen. All right. One person I was trying to make this point to and I asked him, How many people do you think will read your dissertation after you graduate? He said, Well, I know of one. He thought about it for a second. Like he’s talking about your mom. It’s like, he’s like, yes. It’s like your mom’s like, I won’t read your dissertation either. It’s like, you’re not gonna quiz her on it. And she’s gonna say she read it, and you both won’t talk about it anymore. Because, yeah, just the way this thing is, is to a lot of people this because this seems it frustrates them to hear this. But this is a school project. It’s a pass fail school project. Yeah. But once you get it done,
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:51:35]
you get a doctorate. like I tell my students with their A’s, because they’re always looking for a you know, I, you know, I was two points away from this. And I always say, you know, I’ve been seeing clients and private practice for 20 plus years, no one ever asked me what my GPA was in my graduate school,
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:51:52]
right? And I bet you, the same number of people have asked you what you write your dissertation or problem,
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:51:57]
right. The only reason why they know is because they have my book.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:52:02]
The question I sometimes ask the students, if they know there’s a very specific word that they use, it comes from medieval French. And it’s the use to describe the person who graduates last in their class from medical school. And I asked them if they know what that is. And you think about it for a while a few people get it. It’s Doctor. That’s what they call the person who graduates last in the classroom. So number one, get over yourself. For two, you might want to talk to your physician. Just make sure that they really graduated.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:52:42]
Yeah, so it’s really getting the job done. It isn’t glamorous, as you say, you know that. And, really, it’s about getting the doctorate because I always tell my students don’t even put ABD on anything, all but dissertation. Nobody wants to see that. It’s not impressive. And but the PhD is or the Psy. D., in our case, clinical doctorate. And so every you know, that’s what you need. Yes. You need those letters by your name,
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:53:15]
because it’s not true. But to most people in industry, most people in the quote real world. You tell them that you complete a doctoral degree program, except for the fact that you didn’t graduate like you did. You did everything but your dissertation. Why? Like
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:53:34]
you act like they’re not impressive.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:53:38]
To it whatsoever. Now, we know that there is going through doctoral degree classes is beneficial, even working or
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:53:45]
Of course you did the learning
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:53:46]
beneficial. But in the quote, real world, they don’t see any benefits at all. The time, blood, sweat, tears money, that you’re investing this. Because you can’t have a return on investment unless you get the degree.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:53:59]
Yep. Yeah. So like, just turn it in good enough is good enough. It really isn’t. The school has certified This is good enough. It’s good enough. It’ll end up in ProQuest with everybody else. And frankly, I think most of my students look at the dissertation, so that might look at your dissertation, but just to see what the, suggestions for future research section says in case they get a good idea for their dissertation, which is the benefit.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:54:27]
Well, I’ve had such a fun time talking about all this. What final piece of advice would you give students based on you know, your experience at personal experience and professional experience over the years? As they’re facing this process? Let’s say someone who’s in the middle of the dissertation process, and then someone who’s graduated, finished. What advice would you give each of those folks?
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:54:50]
Well, if you’re in the middle, keep going because you’re really you know, the it’s always say it’s going up a hill. That’s your first, it’s your proposal. The first three chapters is the hill. Once you’ve defend that and get to IRB and get through that, you’re going down because the data collection and analysis goes quickly. It’s fun,
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:55:08]
why? collect and analyze your data, then you’re going downhill. Things that you don’t get to control in that data collection.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:55:15]
That’s true. However, I have found that I have never had a student stall out in that section, and I’ve had tons stall out at the beginning. Absolutely, what we do have is we do see sometimes students that stall out because of the external forces, they can’t well, and that’s
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:55:31]
something you and your chair can revise. So you’ll get your your get your analysis, you’ll get your data, you’ll do the analysis, defend. if you’re at the end, and you have done that, then I highly recommend that you whatever your industry is, wherever you’re going, that you at least present your research at a you know, professional conference, people always looking for either presentations or poster presentation, get your name, you will talk to a lot of people as you know, networking is the big thing in every every profession, you’ll you’ll get you are at the moment of your dissertation defense, the expert on that topic at last, I would say maybe two years and then starts getting old. So while it’s two years, get out there, tell people, they want to hear what you have to say. And then you may start to think about publishing either, again, it depends on the field, academia is a different ballgame, you know, get some journal articles published. You know, in my field of psychology, there’s tons of places, blogs, all kinds of stuff you can publish. And then start, you know, if you can, if you really still passionate about this aspect of this topic, move forward into a book that, one of my students who has written two already, he is a psychotherapist, but had had a business prior to that. He says this is your world’s best business card, your book 100% and your hand out that card. And in my case, yes, I’ve had many people come to my practice, because a friend gave them my book. Or maybe I did a talk. And I always give a book out to the people that come to my talks. Because, again, it’s my business card that’s going to get passed around, maybe they don’t need to talk about Oh, you know what, here, the Suzy, here’s this book that I got, I think it can help you. So and also, it makes me feel good if people are getting helped. So you know, the way they will throw brochures away. Even those that aren’t very educated, have some sort of distaste for throwing books away.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:57:47]
Correct. And they hold on to them, surprisingly, yeah, I’ve had people come in a couple years after a workshop, and maybe all they did was get the book. And, you know, and then finally, they call. So um, but you know, I think for anyone to have that ability to connect with people, like you said, they’ll hold on to the book, it’ll be in their mind, it’s usually they have it because they connected with you on that level of interest, or need. And it also now be another dividend from your dissertation.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:58:22]
And I would agree with you 100%. If you think you’re gonna hang out a shingle and be an expert in any way, you know, where you’re running your own business, in some sense. We’re getting the book out there it is the world’s best business card enough, hands down. Anybody else that has a doctoral degree and thinks I’m not going to be an expert, you’re lying to yourself. You’re an expert. So if you’ve got earned a doctoral degree, get the book out, it will make you you know, you and someone else are up for position dean at a college but you wrote a book on this sort of thing, you become the de facto choice, you know, someone you know, is looking for a sales manager. And this guy has so much experience and so to you, but you have a doctoral degree, and you wrote the book on this thing. I mean, it just, it really is a huge thing. People. Most people can’t fathom earning a doctoral degree or writing a book. If you’ve done both of them. They’re just gonna think kowtow down.
Dr. Melody Bacon [00:59:23]
Absolutely. And people love that, you know, they so you know, you you’ve already gone through the process, dissertation writing, gotten that done. It’s not unlike that. It’s more fun, frankly, to write a book much more I think. But, you know, and, and then you could there’s many ways to go and many publishers that are looking to tell you about Guilford, there’s a bunch that are always looking for, for good, good books that think, because they need they need to stay in business and publish right so it’s a win for everybody. Absolutely.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:59:57]
Well, just want to remind folks today I I hope this has all been useful. And folks find it entertaining. It seems like it’s one long commercial for what I do in talking about, you know, getting your dissertation and writing books, they’re both really, really valuable things on if you want help with either one of them, you know, in the dissertation, you’re working on that, come to DissertationDone.com/done. If you’ve finished your dissertation, you want to write that expert book, DissertationDone.com/book, we’ll have a conversation either way, and see if it’s something we might be able to help you out with. But in the meantime, Dr. Bacon, thank you so much for joining, joining us today and sharing your journey. I think it’s a lot of people, the various pieces will resonate with them because you mentioned so many problems that I hear from these students. thanks so much.
