Switching Careers with a Little Help from Your Friends with Dr. Dawn Graham
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:20:44] Yeah, that I agree. One hundred percent with that. I will tell you, I think the degree of the doctoral degree is always worth it because there are so many opportunities and so many benefits. It’s really hard to see what you’re what you’re sacrificing in order to get to that degree where the sacrifice isn’t worth the degree. But that’s my point of view. And certainly someone else could have a different perspective. That idea of choice and being conscious about the decisions you’re making, I think is incredibly important to you.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:21:12] If it’s a little bit of cognitive dissonance, you know, after after I spent all this time and money getting this degree, there’s no way I’m going to say outloud it wasn’t worth it because that would be that would just screw up my head. But yeah. And I do feel like it was worth it. And I can come up with a dozen reasons why it was worth it more. I’m glad I did it and all of that. But I but I do think that, you know, I think I think there’s a lot there’s so many credentials out there nowadays. There’s so many training programs and this and that. And and, you know, I’m not saying don’t get them. I love to learn. I love to do that. But I think I think sometimes we put too much weight on those as well. You did this. You must be qualified. And I think there’s so much more to it than than just checking the boxes and paying the money for the tuition. So so I do think they’re great achievements and they definitely say something about a job candidate or about somebody being qualified in a certain area. But it’s not one hundred percent. It’s there’s there are definitely other things to consider.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:22:18] Yeah. I don’t understand why sometimes I see folks who’ve had their doctoral degree for a while and they continue to get these other letters, other certifications, other whatever. And my thought process is just like why I want you to go on learning forever and you should continue to do that. But the main thing and I’ve had so many of the guests on the podcast, and I think the main benefit I think that you get from a Ph.D. is you really, truly learn how to learn. And you if you need to become an expert in something, as long as you just devote your time to it, you can do it in a relatively short amount of time. And there’s this wonderful thing out there called the Internet has so much information and you’re good at pulling pieces of information together and synthesizing them and developing an understanding that I don’t know why you want to keep paying tuition in particular, to have someone hand it to you on a silver platter because you can just go find and develop your own kind of learning about whatever topic might interest you. And that includes if you want to be an expert in it because you can help a client or go into another discipline that you haven’t studied before. I think that you’re qualified. Now, we have a doctoral degree to learn that stuff yourself and not have to put yourself through more tuitions and programs and all those sorts of things.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:23:36] You know, and it’s it’s an interesting perspective because I know I’m one of the things that I think people don’t realize when you get some type of certification, like now that I’m a licensed psychologist, I have to maintain that I have to get forty degrees. And those costs money and those take time. I mean, there was required tests and and things like that. And so it is never ending. And I have let some other certifications. I used to be used to have the certification and and I just I couldn’t keep up with every single list of required certifications. It’s financially it’s expensive, it’s time consuming. And and so I think you do have to pick and choose what’s going to be right for you and what’s going to really get you where you want to be and support your goals. Because, you know, people have suggested to me, have you thought about going back for coaching certification? I thought about it because I do like to learn. And I think meeting with a group of people with shared interests definitely has benefits. But, you know, I have to think hard about it because now I’m going to have another certification where I have to get used and maintain that and and do all those steps. And it would be more for me, it’s nice to have versus a need to have. But but I definitely think you have to understand that there’s there’s not for most of these things, there’s not an end point. It’s it’s there’s a maintenance process. And if I if I don’t get use, I have to sit for the P again, which quite frankly, if I ever had to get in my life, I don’t think I would get that was that was a whole summer of spending every evening and weekend studying, studying, studying. And it was miserable. And I passed and I just I don’t think I’m going to get
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:25:26] the same experience. I took my comprehensive exams. We were studying our. OK, work for the entire summer and going out of those exams, it’s like this is it, I just cannot imagine doing it again. I have to pass because if I don’t pass, I’m not I’m not going to sign up for it again. But but with regard to the certification, certainly if your job requires and you’re a licensed psychologist, your job requires you maintain that licensure. That’s a different thing. Well, my wife’s a registered nurse and there there’s certain things that she has to do to maintain that status. Does that mean that she needs to get what new certifications in order to continue her career, in order to learn new things? No, but she does have to maintain this thing if she wants to keep her job. So that’s that’s certainly a different thing. But tell us a bit a bit about the book, though, because a lot of our students, we’ve got students who are going through their dissertation process and who envision some sort of new career on the other side of that process. That’s the reason we talk about intentionality a little bit earlier. That’s the reason why that’s why they’re pursuing their doctoral degree, is maybe to switch gears a little bit or to level up. And even the process of writing the book, I think would be interesting for some folks because we have people who also like to work in that expert space, who want to get their book out there. We help with that as well. I think both parts of that story will be very interesting to folks.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:26:47] So I think, you know, I think the book was similar to the Ph.D., I’ve always wanted to write a book, but for me, I didn’t just want to write a book. I wanted to write a book that was needed on the shelves. And I think that is in part what took me so long to write it. I would say beginning to end. It took me about seven years. So my my my next Ph.D.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:27:08] It was a dissertation.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:27:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it wasn’t that I was writing constantly, it was that clarity comes through actions you write and then you sort of tested and, and then this isn’t the right direction or I haven’t narrowed my focus or I didn’t create a great avatar for my audience and it’s too broad. And so you go back and forth and I hired editors to kind of help me with modifying and then I take a break from it. But anyway, I think it took me a few years to even figure out what that table of contents would actually be, because I was all over the place. I knew it was going to be a career book, but I wasn’t sure what career book. And then when I came over through my work and through my research and my piloting and interviewing people, what I learned was that there was seven hundred and fifty books out there on exploring new careers, but there wasn’t a single book on. Once you decide you want to make a big change, how to get there. There are lots of great career books on I’m getting a job, but not one specifically written for people who are making a big pivot mid career. And so that became the book.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:28:21] I read so many statistics about how people legitimately have. You probably know the numbers better than I do, but is it like three or four careers? Those people not like jobs, but literally were doing different things. I’ve been a software developer, a professor, a an entrepreneur, and there’s probably something else if I think about this. But I’m probably on my
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:28:41] career eight, nine, 10, 11. It’s pretty common. And it’s going to just get to be more performance because of how quickly technology is getting implemented into the workplace. And some industries are emerging that have we’ve never seen before and others are going way. So I think it’s going to be pretty commonplace to have 10, 11, 12 careers.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:29:05] So how how do you approach that if you’re thinking, like I said, with our students in particular, they’re working through the dissertation. A lot of them are looking to either up level or switch careers after they graduate. What sort of things should they be thinking about?
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:29:19] So I think it depends where you want to go. I think a lot of people get a PhD because they want to work in a university. And if you want to work in university, there’s some pretty specific parts that that are in place. And obviously they want to see you doing published research and peer reviewed research and things like that,
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:29:37] That’s not our audience. Because as we look at the dissertation or the doctoral degree process as as being there’s two types of doctoral students, the traditional one who does go that they want to be a research professor and then what we call unconventional doctoral student is going to do something else. They’re going into industry somehow, maybe hang out a shingle or something like that. So most of our folks are not really interested in that publish or perish career path, but rather maybe teaching at a university that doesn’t require publications or maybe something else completely something completely different, many of them in that kind of expert field where they’re going to be either a hired gun or they’re going to hang out their own shingle, or maybe they’re just going to be highly positioned in an organization as an expert.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:30:24] Yeah. So I would say you have to know your audience and you have to know your target and then start to, even before you graduate, start to market yourself. I knew for me that I want to go back into business and that I wanted to work in a firm that did leadership and executive assessment and development assessment and required PhDs and looked for PhDs. And there’s it’s a kind of a niche field. And I I started networking with all of the people who excuse me I knew or could find who worked at these companies. And a great thing about being a student is that you could say, hey, I’m a student. I’m starting to research a graduate in a year and get that information and build those relationships and start to see where you might be a fit. And I think if you don’t have that target and you don’t start early, you’re going to feel like you’re behind because networking and building relationships and having a clear target are going to be so important to making any kind of pivot. And I tell people this all the time, degrees, they’re great. They show a lot of skills, as we’ve talked about before. But know they don’t get you in the door. It’s not enough. You need to have relationships. You need to have concrete experience. They want to see a commitment to that field. They don’t want to see someone who just wants a job. They want somebody who’s hungry for their particular organization and then has been spending the last six months talking to people from the organization, demonstrating their interest. So I think that is the step to figure out where you want to be and start building relationships and make sure that target is very specific because you can’t do a brand on LinkedIn. You can’t you can’t be everything to everybody. And if you try and do that, you’re not going to be anything to anybody because people are going to see you as too broad and you have some things, but you don’t quite fit. So getting that clarity is to me, one of the most important things
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:32:25] That’s super important. The going back to the relationships, I was having this discussion with my son literally this morning. I mentioned he’s in high school and there is an academy, basically a program, a track within a school that you like to get into. He wants to be a surgeon and they have a special track for that, essentially. And and I told them we need to reach out to these people and find out what you can do about getting into that that program. And he didn’t know exactly how to get in touch with his counselor, so he asked his math teacher and he does very well in math. And this teacher likes him a lot. And she helped him figure out how to get in touch with his counselor. And I asked him, did you ask her how to if she could help you get into that academy? Because, like, no, she told me how to get to know what you what your goal is and talk to the to the person about that, because you never know what person is going to be like. Oh, yeah. The person who runs that program was my best friend. I’ll talk to him. You’re in the worries. And just having that relationship there is so powerful and you never know what kind of dividends pay off. So that’s that’s huge. And then the notion of knowing what you want and what you don’t want, you’ve got if you’re not pushing people away, you’re not bringing anybody towards you. So that’s something that’s difficult for a lot of folks early on to realize that you have to push people away in order to truly get to where you want. Otherwise, like you said, you’re going to be nothing to anyone when you’re trying to be everything to everyone.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:33:47] I do think it’s about being focused and targeted and assertive. I mean, I’m I’m an introvert by nature, which is why I did that is part of my dissertation. But the fact is, when you when you are targeted and when you have a passion and a strength and an expertize in a certain area, it’s a little bit easier to be assertive because you you’ve done the work. And I think when you’ve done the work, you’re going to have a much better conversation with somebody than if you’re kind of scattered and you’re not sure what to do and you’re not sure what you want from them. So I think that self reflection, that time to define what you really want to do is going to be so well worth it. But you do have to start early if you start once you graduate. And I know a lot of people sort of way because let’s face it, you’re busy program, then you’re going to it might take some runway time. So you just have to know and not every organization values a Ph.D. in the same way, and so you have to figure out where where organizations that value what I’m bringing and value the deep expertize I have in this area and make sure that you’re targeting those. And it’s the same thing with an MBA or any degree. You know, there are certain ones that are like we we love MBAs and there’s others. It’s like we could take it or leave it. But what else you got? So so you really have to know what your your audience values.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:35:18] Absolutely. We’ve got the book. So obviously folks who are interested in this could grab the book. It’s on Amazon, on Amazon. Is that right?
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:35:27] It’s on Amazon. It’s hard to miss so much.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:35:32] But you did some coaching in this area, too, is that right?
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:35:36] So I work at the Wharton School, so I work with executive MBAs. And more and more, they want to make career changes, mid career, and they’re at a certain level in their career. So that’s essentially what the book excuse me is about. It’s about how to brand yourself to the audience, how to pull out of yourself what’s relevant, not necessarily what’s most impressive, and sometimes does the same things, but other times they’re not. And and we all know that we get very tied to our identity. And that identity sometimes be great and at other times it can get in our way. So I think particularly when you’re switching jobs, you have to understand your audience and what is relevant and start with that so that you capture their attention and then building your network. And that’s really what this book is about, getting around the process of of applying online and going through the gymnastics of the applicant tracking systems and things like that, because, quite frankly, those processes don’t even work very well for traditional candidates. So if you’re a switcher, you’re going to really be disappointed with the the reaction or the impact those have in your career search.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:36:54] And it’s amazing. That echoes one hundred percent. That conversation is talking about seven with my son this morning that, you know, there’s probably an application process and you can try to go through that. But what you really want to do is find somebody who knows somebody because that’s how you get in. And I told him that echoes throughout life and in this podcast to somebody else.
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:37:17] I think as a parent, somebody else needs to say it. It’s just it’s just standard, you know.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:37:22] So what one piece of advice would you give folks that are they’re looking to switch careers about networking here? We’re twenty, twenty one right now. You know, hopefully we’re kind of pre post pandemic. I think we’re all getting tired of it. We’re hopefully moving out of the woods. But still, things aren’t back to normal yet. So what advice would you give somebody? One best tip for networking in the current climate?
Dr. Dawn Graham [00:37:47] Yeah, I would say don’t underestimate the people you already know. I did. I did my whole TEDx talk on this because as an introvert, I hear people say all the time, I’m not good at it. I’m not I don’t really know anyone. I get flustered. It feels schmoozy. And, you know, I say one of the easiest places you can network is with the people in your life, whether that’s your your classmates or your faculty or the staff, I think are great to network with. I mean, think about how many classes they’ve helped, certainly your family, your community, friends, if you’re in extracurricular activities or their industry groups. But oftentimes we don’t talk about our career goals in specific terms with the people who are ready, trust us already have a relationship with us and want to see us succeed. And so I think we very much need to become comfortable with saying, hey, you know, I’m going to be graduating in six months and I’m not sure if you know, but the top three companies I’m targeting are A, B and C, and I was curious if you know anyone and you might think, well, of course, my spouse doesn’t know anyone or of course, my neighbor my I talk to everyday, doesn’t know anyone because they’re in a different field. But that’s so not true these days. We all are on social media. We all have friends who have friends and spouses and families. And you’d be surprised if you can give somebody a specific way to help you, whether that’s a company or you’ve seen somebody on their LinkedIn that you want to meet, they’re going to be able to help you in different ways and get you to that next step. So I think the biggest piece of advice is don’t underestimate anybody because they’re not in your field or because they’re they’re not in they’re not working mean maybe they’re retired, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a whole lifetime of connections who might work or know somebody who works in the place you want to be. And I think that that to me is the best advice I can share, because I think we all need to look at the job search as an ongoing process where. We talked about this a few minutes ago. We’re all going to have three, four, five, six, seven, eight, 12 jobs, which means we’re all going to be in a job search. And so it has to become much more of a social process than a solitary one. And I know people feel vulnerable putting it out there and asking for help. But if we all look at it like, well, we’re all going to be doing this, then it’s just my turn this time. And it might be that person’s turn next time, then I think we’re going to find a lot more leads and a lot more opportunities in our lives.
