Making Science Change the World with Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:20:02] Oh, gosh, it smacked me, I would say that I like I was thinking, what am I feeling? What is this thing? It it was it was around covid. And I had a consulting company and we were thinking that we’re going to a very different direction. And then I was sitting there and then one day somebody called me and they said, we’re trying to polygraphing and facemasks to make this better in this boat. And I said, OK, sounds good. I can help you. And you obviously when your own consulting company, OK, bring it on. And then I was then the next call came in and then the third one. And then I started getting a lot of that. This was around maybe March of last year at the peak of when we were in Europe. And then I started asking myself how many people are trying to polygraphing if it’s passed. And then I started having another question, which was and they are doing it for, I would say like biocides cetera, applicative properties, things like that. And then I started asking myself. Is this the best that I can do, meaning am I really behind this, because if it was two years ago, I would have said, absolutely, we’re going to help you do this thing. But people were dying. And I started thinking, oh, my God, is this is this a maximum societal impact of the thing that I want after a year? Looking back, would I say I was happy with myself because I helped someone or companies put in a face mask? Because it is a great application, but at the same time, they’re like,.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:21:33] Why would you do that?
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:21:35] It makes it more bacteria and viruses resistant. But at the same time, the problem we’re having at the time was people didn’t have face masks, OK, that was not the problem was not do we have better face mask? It was really we didn’t have face mask when we had them. People were refusing to wear them. And then there were no policies in place to do this. So I started thinking, is that what is going to be outcome of my year of work during COVID? And I realized that it wasn’t. And then I started thinking about what is the maximum impact a graphene can do. And I started asking the directors of these big centers, billion dollar programs in Europe, for example, that have been friends for a while. What are you guys working on? And they said, well, our our our professors are doing this and that. And I said, well, we’re always doing this and that. What else? What is the strategy? What do we do? And they said it’s not our job. I mean, what are we talking about? And I said, this is a different thing. People are dying. This is not our normal life. We need to do something more about this. And then I stood stood because a war I’m turning into people that I used to not understand because I’m an activist and people like that. I used to look at and say, I don’t understand why you’re doing this. And then I said, oh, my God, now I get it. I get what they were talking about. And it was something within me that I when I started the Advanced Material of Future Preparedness Task Force, which was still around March, no funding, no nothing. We started a public benefit initiative and people told me, you know, you’re crazy. And I said, I have I have only my time to put into this and a little bit of funding to put into this. I’m OK with doing that. And I feel like it’s my responsibility if it is what it takes for me to pour my time on it. People were saying was paying you. I said, I don’t need somebody to pay me to do this. I see it as my responsibility. And now it’s another oh my God, it’s so different than what I would have thought five years ago. And we started and now we have over 20 country chapters. We have organize a first letter to the United Nations secretary general from the graphene community saying that needs to be looked at. So we started a very different kind of approach to this. But it all started with you said when was that time? It was said for me, it was it was COVID and it made me question myself and what I was doing.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:23:59] And, well, when I hear when I talk to folks with their doctoral degrees or who are pursuing their doctoral degrees, it seems like always at some point their hits. This idea of I want to make an impact, I want to make the world a better place and hear that from you is really inspiring to say there’s so many things I can do it. Earlier you were talking and I, I sort of conjured this scene from Jurassic Park from so many years ago where, you know, Jeff Goldblum’s character says, I you know, they were spending too much time thinking about what they could do. They didn’t think about what they should do and to think about with some intentionality, not whether this thing is bad for us and it’s going to cause dinosaurs to eat us all. But just is this the best use of our time? Is this something that we can be doing if we if we can put masking or graphene in the mask? Great. So to do what we can do, that is an interesting challenge. But does it serve society? Does it really, really help us? Or is there are there other things that we can do to help out more? And I think that that’s that’s that’s great when people. Reached this point in their lives where you have that credential, you’ve you’ve been to that particular mountaintop, now you can start to think about other things, about really making an impact as opposed to just making the rent, so to speak.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:25:20] Correct, and it is it’s a process and it really does hit at different times, but I think I always used to say, yes, we’re doing this for societal impact. We want to make it more of a better place. But I don’t think I ever meant it. I mean, I think that what I meant was not really I didn’t think deep enough about it. I think that’s a very good message for the audience, is that sometimes we have to be OK with our degrees and our our stature in our field and this and that of saying maybe there is a different way to look at it and take that unconventional path, whatever it is.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:25:55] Well, and I think he probably did mean that you’re making the world a better place all along because you were the know that I firmly believe the march of progress, the march of technology and all those things. I think that those, generally speaking, are are good things. If we really are not careful, they can get out of hand and be used for bad things. But often it’s good. But there’s this question of intentionality. You know, if what you were doing was was to make money, then then, yes, it makes the world a better place. But that’s not your focus. Your focus was on on commercializing or making money. If your intention and your focus is I want to do things that really are going to make the world a better place, you just connect with it differently. It doesn’t mean that one person who is more commercial is doing bad for the world or not doing good. But it just you you perceive it differently. You feel it differently when you know what your intentions are. That’s really interesting intentionality.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:26:55] There are so many different priorities that we put in front of ourselves when economic prosperity is a very, very high, often regarded for all of us a priority. If you find yourself choosing another thing where there is another priority over that economic prosperity, then that tells you that you probably care about that thing. And those are the I would say that people that I really admire and I see that I see that I think it is within all of us. There is always that thing that within all of us something allows us to actually make different priorities. And just that that’s amazing.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:27:37] There was a story that you told me a little bit, something about about when you were giving your TED talk. And I’d like you to tell folks a little bit about the TED talk, but also what that experience was like for you.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:27:51] It was a really interesting experience because, you know, we are you and I and everybody who was doing their. You know, we go to conferences and we give talks. And I mean, even if you were giving a keynote or whatever plan or whatever, we have our presentation. We know what we’re going to talk about. We prepare a little bit and we have usually more time like meaning if you go five minutes or a little bit more over time, nobody’s going to kick you off the stage. Right. But this the thing about this that the TEDx talk experience was that it is every word memorized. And I don’t think we are used to memorizing stuff because people who do their speeches, we’re not we’re very used to actually think about this and we already know our subject really well. So the fact that this was memorizing and I realized, oh, my God, actors and actresses, gosh, God bless them. This is a very hard thing to do, to memorize stuff you have you have to memorize it because there is a time limit. And if it goes over that, Ted will not accept that talk. So it is it’s very important that part of it was an experience. The other part was that although I have in my in my career, I have had to give those talks, which is not for scientific audience. I’ve had to give it a lot of had to give it on Capitol Hill. I’ve had to give it on industry associations. But this was a very different thing. This was supposed to be how do we tell a story? Right. More than anything. And I learned a lot from the coach that they assigned me. And I want to say that to you guys, too, as well, because I was talking to my husband the other day and he said, that’s so interesting. I did not know that. He told me that in every scenario where you are on stage. There is about you have about 30 to 45 seconds for the audience to decide if they like you or not, isn’t that isn’t that interesting?
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:29:49] I’ve always heard it’s much less than that.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:29:51] Yeah. They told me you’ve got or maybe that they did based on their sentences or whatever it is. They said you’ve got about 30 to 45 seconds to endear yourself to the audience. And after that, they have decided they like you and they’re going to listen to you or they are going to listen to you because they pay to sit in the audience. But they’ve already formed an opinion about you. And there are different ways of endearing yourself. And I think that even though it might not necessarily apply to all of us, those of us who are preparing for the dissertation and they have to give it to you, you have to present the they told me that there are three different ways. One is to make fun of yourself, say something funny, like when I was coming home, I tripped over. And you know what? That’s why I like my hair so good. The other one was to tell to get people to actually imagine something and do something that is so outside the box. I think of aliens and we’re thinking, OK, we’ll talk about graphene when I talk about aliens and then they get you get their imagination. And he told me that the third one is to tell a story, to tell a heartfelt story at connect to your childhood. And if you look at that, the TED talks are usually if you listen to them, you will see the same exact scenario. It’s like this is a formula for something like this. And I think we can apply that formula very much in any of our talks, no matter how scientific it is. I’ll put a bit of yourself into it in the beginning.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:31:24] I think that’s so important that folks so. When they’re working on their dissertation and they’re learning how to to write academically, formally, people have a lot of trouble with that and so much difficulty trying to to to do things so that it’s succinct and there’s an economy of expression and everything’s very precise. Then later on, when you leave academia, you have to kind of unlearn that stuff because it’s the only place where we really use it. And you have to learn how to inject yourself back into this. Personally, we work with folks who want to write a book that goes out into the public press and it’s all about you and your stories and, you know, you being able to inject humor into the situation. You’re not just teaching. You’re helping someone solve a problem in a way that they they feel like they know like and trust you first and foremost. And and so those things that you mentioned are all very important to the imagination thing, I would say. Sounds to me it’s a it’s a persuasive principle in general of getting someone to commit to something, actually getting them to do something for you. It sounds awfully weird, but there’s this principle in psychology called reciprocity. And if you get someone to do a favor for you, they’re actually more likely to do another favor for you. They feel like they’re they’re more invested with you, not because you did something for them, but because you got them to do something for you. So if you tell them to imagine something, they’re following your instructions. They’ve kind of done you a favor and they’re more hooked in to what you’re doing.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:32:59] I never thought about it that way. It’s so interesting, I sense that I sense that based on, you know, we learn things without like having a guideline. I have always based on just life experience. Do you write when somebody does, you ask somebody to do a favor for you? You actually like it. And but the way you’re putting it is amazing.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:33:18] Yeah, it’s it’s something that I felt like I said, I grew up in the hard sciences, but I’ve learned there’s there’s there are these principles, scientific principles that apply to the so-called softer sciences that are very, very real. And some of the stuff that you pull out of psychology is is really amazing. Like who would have thought, you know, if you want someone to like, you ask them to do something for you.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:33:41] It sounds contradictory, but that sense that.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:33:45] It works and that’s that’s definitely something. If you’re giving a talk, if you can get someone to to do something for you, whatever it is, get them to, you know, try to recite the alphabet backwards in their head. Tie it together for some reason, you know, make sure that there’s some little reason why you asked them to do it, but they get involved. They do this thing that you asked them to do and they’re more and more likely to be compliant with your talking to listen to what you’re you’re telling them. The other one I’m I’m a little surprised they didn’t bring up is a lot of people respond very to visually to to a presentation. And so another big one is using a prop. If you can find a way and it doesn’t matter, doesn’t have to be a great prop, it could be like a pencil, just any little thing, you know, acknowledge it, look at it, talk about it for for a few seconds. And it engages people in a way that no, it’s not just them looking at it at a person because it’s as interesting as you might be. You’re a person and they’re kind of there to hear a person talk. If they see that there’s also this other thing going on, it it takes them a little bit out of the comfort zone, a little bit out of what they expected and get them to engage just a little bit more.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:34:58] Absolutely. Just need to engage people more so they listen to us because we’ve got good things to say.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:35:04] And if you ever want to get people to lean forward when you are in the middle of your talk, what you do is you is you ask them, can I tell you a story? No, no one says no, I’m over here like doing my phone, if you say, can I tell you a story like story, because that’s deep down that’s where we learn for so many years the oral tradition before we had written language, people telling stories around the fires at night and that sort of thing. That’s how we learn. That’s how we learned what sounds were dangerous and what things you shouldn’t eat and all of this sort of thing. So, yeah, if you want to get good at telling stories and help, absolutely.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:35:53] It serves you so well in different levels and different stages of your life, not only in academia. I wish I’d known that. I wish I. I did have an adviser who was amazing and he was he was a part of Bell Labs. He is eighty something now and he always told us tell a story. So we are already getting that from him. But then I crafted that a lot more during the years. And I really hope that your audience, they start putting that in there. You will see it. We are afraid. You know what? We are afraid when we were doing our PhDs because we don’t know exactly how we are going to be perceived. We are not very sure of our stature at that point. So it’s like I would have been very scared of starting my story telling, like in my first conference when I was a graduate student in a very big scientific audience to say, starting my talk, saying, I’m going to tell you a story. You know, I probably started saying, OK, our group does this and that. You know, it’s but I probably would have gotten a lot better results if I had the guts to do that when you.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:37:02] And that guts is part of it. Right. Because that’s not typical when you when you are in an academic conference.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:37:09] I’ve never seen anybody do that. So you have to have an example to do something like that. And I’ve never seen anybody.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:37:17] Think about the people that are really good. They are the ones that are engaging you in some way, even if it’s, you know, super geeky culture that’s in that particular conference. And you’re talking your own little secret code language. It’s still about stories and humor, even if it’s in that really tight, small, geeky niche. It doesn’t matter how you you tell your stories and you get your your talk for the audience. And and if the audience is really tight and small, that’s fine. And if the audience is big and broad, then you got to got to be able to speak to those folks. You know, that’s that’s something I really admire about folks who can’t communicate science to to a large audience, because it’s it’s so important to get people to understand what these things mean and how important they are and to do it in a way that they resonate with.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:38:10] And that’s that’s a part of our responsibility. Right. Whoever is listening right now, if you’re doing a Ph.D., it becomes your responsibility to deliver what you have learned to the outside world. It’s not just, oh, it’s not my job. Yes, it is our job. It’s adaptable. We have to pay. We learn from so many people. And I think you brought up the TED talks. It’s a very good format for people to actually listen to and say, now it’s my job to actually tell my story like this because you have to touch a bigger audience now, regardless of where which field you’re in.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:38:43] And there we’re all constantly talking to our students about what is your why what what is it that you’re trying to accomplish? Who do you want to help? And when you think about it in those terms, being able to figure out how to touch them, how to tell them stories, that sort of thing, I think it makes more sense. It gives you a destination. It gives you a mission. It tells you where you’re where you’re headed. And and it gets it’s much easier to get there if you know where you’re going.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:39:08] Absolutely. I agree.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:39:10] So you mentioned with with the TED talk, they said, you know, make make a little fun of yourself. Right. They said tell stories. What was the other one that you had in the middle? I forgot.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:39:23] It was like, say something unexpected, like something that you feel sad about or tell a heartfelt story, connect them to you. Right.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:39:33] So one of the things they didn’t mention is if if if you can weave into your story celebrity, then that brings everybody’s attention to bear as well. I think you know where I’m going with this.
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:39:46] You are doing that for so that you’re telling you.
Dr. Russell Strickland [00:39:49] Do you have a story that maybe a little self-deprecating that might involve a celebrity?
Dr. Zina Jarrahi Cinker [00:39:54] There you go. So let me tell you my self-deprecating story on this. So I was as I was walking on the stage and, you know, it’s like it’s like a whole production. It’s not like usually we go on a stage and we give talks. This one was so it’s like you like this, this, this. And it was a lot of people backstage walking on the stage. Somebody taps me on the shoulder and I go back and I look and I look. And then there’s this guy with a beard. And he asked me, are you Dr. Zina? Am I looking at him? And I’m thinking he does look familiar. And I said, yes, I first of all, how does he know who I am? Yes, I’m Dr. Zina. And you are. And he looks at me. You are. Oh, you are, Tom. Something. You are Tom Cruise. And then people around me who are so mortified. And then, he said, No, I’m Tom Hanks. And they were just making fun of me that you are the one person who doesn’t know who Tom Hanks is. I do know him. I was just not expecting him to know who I am and also to tap me on the shoulder right before that. But anyway, people were a lot more embarrassed about it than I was.
